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Fission @fission@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

We're heading into the weekend by announcing our intent to add support to

This means that media attachments can also be collectively shared across the fediverse, just like messages already are.

Initial funding page up on @opencollective if you want to support, and we'll dig in more on this next week! opencollective.com/fission/con

Nov 19, 2022, 00:50
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tobi (they/them) is writing bugs :terminal_cursor: @dumpsterqueer
Nov 19, 2022

@fission

This means that media attachments can also be collectively shared across the fediverse, just like messages already are.

this is rather misleading: media attachments and messages are already shared across the fedi in a very similar way; someone’s remote instance creates them + your instance either receives them or pulls them, and then stores them either in local storage, s3, or in a database, and then serves them to users. The main difference currently is that messages use AP, whereas media transfer just uses good old http

You mention hometown, have you spoken to @darius about this already?

Nov 19, 2022, 10:36
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Darius Kazemi @darius@friend.camp
Nov 19, 2022

@dumpsterqueer @fission we have been in touch and I have indicated that I'm open to pull requests (basically, I'm happy to help provide a storage alternative that isn't owned by Amazon)

Nov 19, 2022, 17:21
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@darius @dumpsterqueer @fission

I'm interested in federated storage too, specifically to try and find something more practical to use as a backend for video.

Re object storage, the S3 protocol can be used as a defacto standard for some open source implementations. That's something I'm likely to implement on my network soon.

Re IPFS, I spent a lot of time experimenting with this for video streaming and vod distribution but my ultimate conclusion is that there's little more than hype.

Nov 19, 2022, 17:56
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@darius @scanlime @fission @dumpsterqueer streaming is hard!

Steaming over an http gateway to IPFS just adds extra steps.

More native protocol approaches need work. Interesting to me is local caching — eg Brave Browser turned on, only download large assets once.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:21
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@boris @darius @fission @dumpsterqueer

"extra steps" isn't the problem, fundamental efficiency problems with IPFS are. and local caching doesn't help for video unless your browser wants to keep a record of every video it's downloaded, which most people don't for both privacy and space reasons.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:23
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@fission @darius @dumpsterqueer @scanlime yep that’s where pinning comes in, where users can choose which pieces of content they care about and want to help preserve (I think of it more like favourites)

Both for themselves (offline support!) and others.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:25
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@boris @fission @darius @dumpsterqueer

Think through how this works though. Let's say a user pins a video. Do they do this before watching or after? When does the client determine which ipfs object hashes (a long list) make up the whole video? Does everyone's browser maintain a huge database of completely incoherent hashes?

Nov 19, 2022, 18:27
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@fission @dumpsterqueer @scanlime @darius I understand. The protocol needs work. My team @fission is working on improvements to the protocol for various use cases. Not sure if/when the video use case will make sense.

I’m personally committed to having content addressed commons networks that explore spaces that aren’t HTTP server centric.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:48
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@boris @fission @dumpsterqueer @darius

What parts of IPFS make it worth using? The DHT is bad, the gossip is bad, the latency is bad.

I've seen folks get sucked into the cult of hashing before and this seems like the same drive. Content addressing makes "anything possible" by making everything equally pessimal.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:56
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@fission @scanlime @dumpsterqueer @darius I’m personally not interested in cementing the S3 API as a pseudo protocol

Definitely use it as a bridge for software that already has interfaces for a quick hack.

I like leaning into what content addressing can give us as a flat open global namespace.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:18
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@boris @fission @dumpsterqueer @darius

So content addressing is appealing for its simplicity, but it's basically worst-case for all of your caches and network latency.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:21
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@dumpsterqueer @fission @scanlime @darius unless it’s already local ;)

I try not to kid people that an arbitrary instance HTTP gateway with best effort services is going to work / be fast.

Like anything else — people / groups are going to need to run community infra.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:24
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@boris @dumpsterqueer @fission @darius

The HTTP gateway is not even close to being the only problem for IPFS, in fact if you start moving away from gateways to local nodes you start to see the other problems more clearly because you aren't relying on the relatively central and long-lived gateway node for all lookups.

I did a whole prototype of a browser-based IPFS video streamer and it worked but IPFS was really not helping, and i decided it was the wrong direction.

github.com/scanlime/rectangle-

Nov 19, 2022, 18:26
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jcn @jcn@ruby.social
Nov 19, 2022

@darius @fission @dumpsterqueer @scanlime would this mean that the traffic / storage for images attached to posts would be shared / not duplicated?

Nov 19, 2022, 18:15
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lime with barcode @scanlime@misc.name
Nov 19, 2022

@jcn @darius @fission @dumpsterqueer

I don't think lack of duplication is really a goal anyone's working on? The ideal would be a controlled amount of duplication for redundancy and load balancing.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:16
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jcn @jcn@ruby.social
Nov 19, 2022

@scanlime @darius @dumpsterqueer @fission is that because “storage/bandwidth are cheap” or for allowing instances to maintain full autonomy? It seems like some deduplication would benefit the entire ecosystem, but I admit to not having thought through all the implications.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:19
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Darius Kazemi @darius@friend.camp
Nov 19, 2022

@jcn @scanlime @dumpsterqueer @fission for hosting stuff like video with anything approaching what people expect from modern perf, duplication is basically the only way we do it. I used to work at Akamai, a huge CDN, and much of the business model was "we duplicate your video on servers around the world physically close to people so they can stream better"

Nov 19, 2022, 18:22
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jcn @jcn@ruby.social
Nov 19, 2022

@dumpsterqueer @scanlime @fission @darius for sure, and I assume if Akamai could have put the entire cache on everyone’s machine locally they would have. I was just wondering if there’s a balance between every instance having all the content, and it all being centralized.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:31
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@jcn @darius @scanlime @fission @dumpsterqueer one of my goals is in fact to explore exactly that:

What if we, collectively, can use more edge techniques for users, devices, etc to cache content, including relying on the self-verifying nature of content addressed data

Nov 19, 2022, 18:50
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Darius Kazemi @darius@friend.camp
Nov 19, 2022

@jcn @dumpsterqueer @fission yeah! as @scanlime said earlier, it's about a controlled amount of duplication, a happy medium

Nov 19, 2022, 18:36
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@darius @dumpsterqueer @fission @jcn @scanlime I think that sharing the load of content that scales from single user instances up to large instances, with a mix of strategies pointing to the same content address

If even one person cares about a piece of content, they can keep it online. So data portability one aspect.

Nov 19, 2022, 18:22
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Boris Mann @boris@plnetwork.xyz
Nov 19, 2022

@dumpsterqueer heya, founder of Fission here. Not meaning to be misleading.

Lots of work to do, general approach with and content addressing is that anyone can help host as well as cache locally, from clients to instances to desktop users

Nov 19, 2022, 18:16
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